tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382184804747180588.post5910165731223139979..comments2024-03-27T09:04:12.454-07:00Comments on Baring the Aegis: On returning the Parthenon MarblesElani Temperancehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05611003885755154591noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382184804747180588.post-67337571011362850182013-11-20T00:04:31.025-08:002013-11-20T00:04:31.025-08:00"Thank you fr your in-depth analysis of the s..."Thank you fr your in-depth analysis of the situation!"<br /><br />@Elani: Thanks (yes, me again. Long story…)!<br /><br />"I agree that this is perhaps not the right time for them to return home--but on the other hand, it might improve tourism and in that way stimulate the economy."<br /><br />Well, I'm not sure about that. I can see that you might get Athenians visiting the museum, but that's not money coming into the economy, just Athenians being taxed an additional €2 each and so largely money being taken out of the economy to pay off overseas debtors, so I'm not sure it would be much of a boost. <br /><br />However, I doubt many people from outside Greece or even Athens will be thinking: 'Well, I wasn't going to go to Athens because it only has the Acropolis, the Temple of Hephaestus, the museums, the stadium, the agora, the Odeum, the Pnyx, and that spot where Saint Paul delivered his sermon. But now they've replaced those plaster casts of those pretty broken up relief marbles with the actual pretty broken up relief marbles, I'm going to go. I won't go to the Acropolis, obviously, because those Karyatids are just plaster casts, but that Acropolis Museum looks like <em>the</em> thing to visit now.'<br /><br />"As for Greek museums having to give back their art items as well; I agree. I also do not think that would be a bad thing, at least not where logical. For countries or states that ceased to exist, this would obviously not be feasable."<br /><br />That rule makes things tricky. Athens as a state ceased to exist in Roman times, when it became part of the Roman Empire and was largely happy. After that, for the best part of 1,000 years it was happy to be part of the Byzantine Empire. The desire for a Greek state only really emerged once the Ottomans took over and Greece only came into existence as a country 300 years or so after that. There is still no Athenian state, Roman state or Byzantine state to which the marbles could be returned.<br /><br />"Elgin did what he thought best at the time, bt the main argument is that precious art pieces were removed from their homeland. Wether this was done legally is of influence, but as is stated in the video; it would be the classy thing to do, no matter if the purchase was valid."<br /><br />I'm not sure it would be classy. It would be no classier than say, the Americans, giving us back London Bridge<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge#Sale_of_Rennie.27s_bridge_to_Robert_McCulloch<br /><br />or any amount of British art or treasures (that we also sold fairly and squarely to foreign buyers, or even that was seized during the American Revolution) being returned from overseas museums.<br /><br />Having said that, I've been to both the Acropolis Museum and the British Museum, I've seen the Elgin Marbles perhaps four or five times, and TBH, it wouldn't be a huge loss to Britain if we did give them back some day. They're nice but even within the same museum, you have more impressive Greek artefacts (The Temple of the Nereids being the most obvious). The Acropolis Museum would probably display them better, since it offers natural light and you can walk around the Elgin Marbles, rather than inside them under artificial light in the British Museum.<br /><br />So I think since the Greeks and the Greek government (largely, at this point, to have a patriotic rallying cry to distract people from the misery of the economy, their own issues of corruption and Golden Dawn's hijacking of Greek patriotism) want them back, it wouldn't hurt to get us some brownie points by giving them back, once we can be sure they'll be looked after properly (and let's not think too hard about what the Greek government is doing with the Parthenon on that score http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/24/world/europe/debt-ridden-greece-turns-to-sacred-sites-for-cash.html). <br /><br />I don't think we have any moral or legal obligation to do it and it's a good job that Elgin did take them, judging by how well the Greeks treated what was left, but if we get something nice in return, why not?Rob Buckleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161472800655115351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382184804747180588.post-90166893258273844002013-11-19T15:01:22.923-08:002013-11-19T15:01:22.923-08:00@MediumRob: Thank you fr your in-depth analysis of...@MediumRob: Thank you fr your in-depth analysis of the situation! I agree that this is perhaps not the right time for them to return home--but on the other hand, it might improve tourism and in that way stimulate the economy. Also, giving them back does not nessesarily have to mean they are returned right away. It could also be something that is only accomplished on paper.<br /><br />As for Greek museums having to give back their art items as well; I agree. I also do not think that would be a bad thing, at least not where logical. For countries or states that ceased to exist, this would obviously not be feasable. <br /><br />Elgin did what he thought best at the time, bt the main argument is that precious art pieces were removed from their homeland. Wether this was done legally is of influence, but as is stated in the video; it would be the classy thing to do, no matter if the purchase was valid.<br /><br />I fear that it will be a theoretical debate for a long time longer.<br /><br />And @Claudia, I am very sorry to add to your misery XD I hope you enjoyed your visit!Elani Temperancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05611003885755154591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382184804747180588.post-73568833285531690452013-11-18T12:49:25.504-08:002013-11-18T12:49:25.504-08:00Oh gods
WHY did you write about this matter this w...Oh gods<br />WHY did you write about this matter this weekend? i was at the museum on satureday and was thinking about this the whole day after the visit and admiring the parthenon marbles...and had the same idea that it isnt a good time to take them back.<br /><br />But well i hope one day they will rebuild the temples anyway...Claudiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06901207796413253547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382184804747180588.post-32228028799399912712013-11-17T14:59:59.623-08:002013-11-17T14:59:59.623-08:00My viewpoint, for what it's worth, is that thi...My viewpoint, for what it's worth, is that this argument basically boils down to should the Elgin Marbles be in a British Museum or a Greek Museum? If the Marbles were sent back to Athens, they wouldn't be put back on the Parthenon and most of them wouldn't be visible to mere mortals even if they were - they were designed only to be visible to the gods; instead, they're going to sit in a museum that already has casts of them on display. So saying they need to be repatriated to Athens seems more of a collecting instinct in the style of Pokemon (gotta catch them all…) rather than because the public is going to be better off and better able to see them in Athens than in Greece. Indeed, the British Museum gets 5.8m visitors a year and the Acropolis Museum gets 1.3m visitors a year, so many more people will get the chance to see them if they stay in Britain than in Athens. <br /><br />The flipside of the argument is that if the British Museum did return the Marbles, the Athenian Museum of Archaeology, for example, would morally be required to return its entire Cypriot collection to Cyprus (both north and south), everything Turkish to Turkey, everything Roman to Italy and so on; one could even argue that the Athenian museum has no rights to any of the Spartan works it currently exhibits, Sparta having been a separate polis from Athens for hundreds of years. Indeed, morally that repatriation should be done first to demonstrate the importance of this form of retroactive ownership. Except it's never going to happen, of course.<br /><br />As for the legality of British ownership, the Nazi comparison isn't really valid. Passing aside the issue of whether or not Elgin used bribes (show me anything important in Athens that _doesn't_ require 'fakalakia' even to this day…), Greece had been part of the Ottoman Empire for 300 years when Elgin bought the marbles. Arguing that the Ottomans weren't the true rulers of Greece and that Greece was under occupation at that time is like arguing that Northern Ireland isn't part of the UK or that Catalonia isn't really part of Spain and they're both under occupation - it's an argument, but a very debatable one. More importantly, if you bought anything from the Spanish government that currently resided in Barcelona right now (eg a plot of land), should you be forced to return it if Catalonia achieved independence from Spain, because when you bought it you were actually taking loot it from foreign occupiers? I don't think so. <br /><br />Elgin went through the procedures - if they can be described as that - that were appropriate for the time and saved the marbles from who knows what (including the Greeks' own 20th century efforts at restoration). No amount of moral relativism and wishful thinking can change the fact that Elgin bought the marbles from their true owners at the time just about as fairly and squarely as it was possible to do then. And if anyone thinks otherwise, I'm sure there are some Native Americans who'd like to speak to them and would quite like their help in getting their continent back.<br /><br />I can see why Greece wants the Marbles back; I can see why some people would want Britain to return them. Maybe at some point down the line, that would be a good idea. But at a time when Greece's economy is in the toilet, museums are being robbed because of lack of security, archaeological services are being cut back and Greece has other nations' properties in its own museums, I'm not sure Greece can offer the best guardianship or even command a moral lead with regards to the Marbles.Rob Buckleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161472800655115351noreply@blogger.com