I want to get this post out there because I've been reading some disturbing things on the internet, mostly in the Pagan community at large, but also in the Hellenistic community. It's rough out there right now. I have written before that I sometimes have a problem with the Hellenistic community, mostly because of its--generalized--disrespect and dismissiveness of the Neo-Pagan community (something Elaion seems to be mercifully without, I might add). As a member of said community--or a former member, if you adhere to the trend that Hellenismos is not part of the Pagan banner--I fully acknowledge anyone's experiences with the divine in its various forms. It doesn't matter to me if you're Recon, polytheistic, monotheistic, atheistic, humanistic or anything in between or outside of it. If you consider yourself Pagan, I'll be happy to stand with you under the umbrella.
Experiences of the divine vary. It has always been that way, and it will always be that way. Especially in our current--individualistic--society, everyone is encouraged to walk their own path. Part of that walk means figuring out what the Gods mean to you. To take the obvious example that led to the creation of this post: Pan. For us Hellenists, Pan is a panikos-inducing shepherd Theos; that's how He was worshipped in ancient Hellas. Now, within the (Neo-)Wiccan pantheon, Pan is the quintessential Horned God; a fertility God of the woodlands. I disagree with that in my practice, but that doesn't mean I will take your head off for worshipping Pan as such. The same goes for Hekate, who in ancient Hellas, was a protective virgin Theoi and not a necromantic crone--and definitely not part of a trinity. Feel free to worship Her as a crone, though, or Queen of Witches. The only thing that will annoy me is when you call me out for 'being wrong' in my worship of Her.
You see, if I respect you enough to encourage you to believe (or not believe, if that's your poison) whatever the heck you want, I would at least like the courtesy to be allowed to believe as I desire as well. As a hard-polytheist, my take on this huge difference is that the Pan or Hekate of (Neo-)Wicca is a different Theoi--or at least a different evolution/epithet of said Theoi--than the ancient Hellenes (in this case) worshipped. And that's fine. It's also fine if you think that's BS.
The message I'm trying to get to here, is that I might not agree with your UPG, but I feel you are very much entitled to it. Ancient Hellenes adopted and rewrote any God or Goddess they came upon to fit their pantheon, and that worked for them. I might be a Recon, but I'm also aware that times change. I have absolutely no patent on The Truth™.
So there, my solemn oath that I'm not jumping on the hate bandwagon. I don't really understand it, I don't condone it, and if I ever see it in the comments to this blog, I'll speak up about it. I believe in temperance, respect, and everyones right to believe what they want to believe. The kind of hate in that link about Pan? It's not constructive, it makes us look like jerks, and it makes an enemy out of the few allies we have as a Tradition. With that attitude, we're going to make things really difficult for ourselves, and it will scare off seekers. No one wants to feel they need to adopt hate in order to 'fit in'. Again, everyone has the right to belief, do, and say what they want, and this includes spreading hate. Just not here, not in my space, and I will not join in. Don't expect me to, and never try to force me into it.
I'm not sure where you get the notion that not considering someone to be under the same religious "umbrella" is somehow "hating" them.
ReplyDeleteJust because someone is entitled to their own UPG, or their own interpretation of my Gods, doesn't mean I am compelled to call them my spiritual kin.
Pointing out that someone's beliefs are different from my own, and that we belong in two separate categories because of it, is not "spreading hate".
I'm genuinely curious as to why you seem to think it is.
Gaaar. It's been ages since I was in any way involved in the heathen community, but my time with them is when I picked up my knee-jerk, anti-"fluffy" habits. It wasn't anything that was actively promoted -- mostly -- but, at least with the heathens I was exposed to, there was a big "it has to be grounded in The Lore" push, and, yes, there was some "anti-fluffy" bits. Which is still annoying, because some of the "fluffy" stuff was things like energy work and the like -- stuff that I *do*.
ReplyDeleteI don't have much experience with other recon or recon-inspired paths, outside of the Heathen (and specifically Asatru) and Hellenic communities, and I'm happy to mostly play in my own pond, at this point. However, it's great seeing posts like this, so thank you.
@Joseph: I seem to have a trouble getting my points across this week; I'm sorry. Let me try to nuance my reaction. Not considering someone to be under the same religious 'umbrella' is in no way 'hating' them; if someone does not want to be there, then who am I to judge? My problem comes from people stabbing knives in the backs of those under the same umbrella--but honestly also in the backs of those under different 'umbrella's'. I don't condone (unfounded) negativity on the Islam or Christianity on that blog as much as I will not allow negativity against Neo-Paganism or Asatru (for example).
ReplyDeleteNow, I'm not saying I think everyone should just get alng, and enjoy rainbows and candy cotton together, but saying things like:
"Because I’m done playing nice with this fluffy neopagan bullshit."
...does not fly with me. Quote taken from the link. You don't have to do anything with anyone if you don't want to, and you sure as heck don't have to agree with everything either, but there can be civility between the group--there has to be civility between the groups--at least under the Pagan banner. It's already a pretty small banner, compared to the rest of the religious landscape, so why make enemies of people who label themselves under the same over-arching banner?
I'm all for the dialogue you propose--someone's believes can most certainly be different than my own--but that gives me no right to assume my believes are 'better' or 'more true'. This is why I'm against the knee-jerk reaction Naiadis describes, and it's this knee-jerk reaction I read in that post.
I hope this is somewhat clearer; the short version is that there is nothing wrong with the dialogue, but bashing a group of people for not believing what you believe is something I am against, and it is something I won't tolerate on this blog.
@Naiadis: I'm a huge fan of The Lore, and in full Recon paths (like mine), I try to steer clear of anything that isn't The Lore (as much as that is humanly possible within the restrictions of The Lore). That said, I have no say what so ever over anyone else's path. Would I prefer people who I would consider non-Recon stop labeling themselves as Recon? sure! That doesn't mean I have to force that upon them (if that were even possible).
ReplyDeleteLike you, I prefer my own pond, but I also have a strong longing for community that readers of this blog have long since been made aware of. As such, I need to find my own boundaries and work with that--posts like these are written to form that foundation.
Thank you for your comment, I'm glad to read you understand where I'm coming from :)
Great post. I understood what you were trying to say, and actually think you said it very clearly FWIW.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Shadow :)
ReplyDeleteI don't want to rain on your parade; but, I have read people who boldly proclaim themselves to be atheists to be pagan; which is, by the way, a legitimate dictionary meaning of the word. It was not until the Christians that the word pagan had gained a meaning of "idol worshipper." Again, this is not a very positive construction at all. I DO NOT consider myself to be either a small letter "p" or capital letter "P" pagan as it does not have any real meaning. I don't hate Wiccans, atheists, informed neos or even poor benighted fluffs. I just don't want to identify with them. I don't celebrate Samhain and they don't celebrate Anthesteria.
ReplyDelete@Julia: Thank you for your comment. I did mention atheists in the list of 'under the Pagan banner, but not my cup of tea', didn't I...? At any rate, I do understand people not identifying as p/Pagan; the term certainly has a varied past. Personally, I have no problem with the reinvented meaning of the word, and identify as a Hellenist first, but Pagan second. YMMV :)
ReplyDelete