Question Collections post 20

 I get a lot of questions from readers, and most of the time, the answers are fairly short. When I feel the question or the reply would be valuable to others as well, I make a post with a collection of them and post them in one go. Today is one of those posts.

"Do you know anyone with UPG into the personality of the river god Achelous or even who works with Greek river gods in general? Also, a popular source on Achelous says his worship was once widespread. I can't anymore detail on this though. I also can't find the source which speaks of the numerous wives and descents of this god. "

I don't think I do, but here is a shout-out to anyone reading this who does! Please get in contact with me so I can link you two...? Thanks! As for His children, Apollonius Rhodius, in the 'Argonautica', ascribes the sirens to Him as offspring:

"And soon they saw a fair island, Anthemoessa, where the clear- voiced Sirens, daughters of Achelous, used to beguile with their sweet songs whoever cast anchor there, and then destroy him. Them lovely Terpsichore, one of the Muses, bare, united with Achelous; and once they tended Demeter's noble daughter [Persephone]still unwed, and sang to her in chorus; and at that time they were fashioned in part like birds and in part like maidens to behold. And ever on the watch from their place of prospect with its fair haven, often from many had they taken away their sweet return, consuming them with wasting desire; and suddenly to the heroes, too, they sent forth from their lips a lily-like voice." [4.885]

Naiad nymphs of springs along the Gulf coast, such as Kastalia at Delphoi, and Peirene in Korinthos, were described as his daughters, as described by Pausanias in his 'Description of Greece':

"You reach, on the right of the way [to the sanctuary of Delphoi, Phokis] the water of Kastalia, which is sweet to drink and pleasant to bathe in . . . Panyassis [epic poet C5th B.C.] who composed an epic poem on Herakles, says that Kastalia was a daughter of Akheloios. For about Herakles he says:--`Crossing with swift feet snowy Parnassos he reached the immortal water of Kastalia, daughter of Akheloios.'" [10.8.9.]

As the largest of the rivers of southern Hellas Achelous was worshipped in many of the countries bordering the Gulf as the God of fresh-water springs. His largest cults were in Athens, Oropos, and Thespia:

Plato, in 'Phaedrus':
"Here, a fair resting-place, full of summer sounds and scents. Here is this lofty and spreading plane-tree [on the banks of the Ilissos river in Attica], and the agnus cast us high and clustering, in the fullest blossom and the greatest fragrance; and the stream which flows beneath the plane-tree is deliciously cold to the feet. Judging from the ornaments and images, this must be a spot sacred to Akheloios and the Nymphai. How delightful is the breeze:--so very sweet; and there is a sound in the air shrill and summerlike which makes answer to the chorus of the cicadae. But the greatest charm of all is the grass, like a pillow gently sloping to the head."

Pausanias, in his 'Description of Greece':
"[In the sanctuary of Amphiaraus in Oropos, Attika :] The altar shows parts . . . the third is to Hestia and Hermes and [the hero] Amphiaraus and the children of Amphilokhos . . . The fifth is dedicated to the Nymphai and Pan, and to the rivers Akheloos and Kephisos." [1.34.3.]

Philostratus the Elder, in 'Imagines':
"A youth [Narkissos] just returned from the hunt stands over a pool . . . The cave is sacred to Akheloos and the Nymphai, and the scene is painted realistically. For the statues are of a crude art and made from a local stone; some of them are worn away by time, others have been mutilated by children of cowherds or shepherds while still young and unaware of the presence of the god [i.e. Dionysos]." [1.23]

I would also like to point you to this page on Theoi.com about the cult of the Potamoi, the river Gods.

"I read your blog and found a blog post containing a video and information about ancient hellenic clothing. I would like to make a new himation as I am unhappy with my short one I made. I would like to wrap it around my body and, if I like to, even be able to cover my head with a piece of it, so I want to ask how large and how broad the piece of cloth should be to do this."

Let me give you the base measurements of all clothing items: the cloth for the chiton has to be your own height. For a peplos, the cloth has to be your height plus at least 18" (this will be the part you fold over). Both clothing items need to be twice your 'wingspan' in width. The himation was a rectangle of various sizes--in essence, if it's long or short enough for you to do with what you want, it is correct. For me, I try to choose a piece of cloth that reaches below my ass once I have pulled it up over my head. Again, this depends on your height.

"Have you heard about the great Hellenic mystic, Neopythagorean and possibly the prototype of Jesus Christ, Apollonius of Tyana?"

As far as I am aware, Neo-Pythagoreanism was a school of Hellenistic philosophy which revived Pythagorean doctrines. Ancient Hellenic philosophy is not my strongest knowledge base, but if I remember well, it focussed on spiritual purity and 'mind over matter'-type of behaviour in order to reach it. Religiously, I think its biggest influence/difference with mainstream thought was that prayer was more important than outward actions like sacrifice in worshipping the Theoi.

 

Apollonius of Tyana was a Roman philosopher and a Neo-Pythagorean. As he lived at the time of Christ and his teachings were partly similar, the two were compared by (Christian) writers from about the 4th century AD on. Both figures fit the mythic hero archetype, after all, and that archetype, specifically, is found in much of (Hellenic) mythology. Other examples include Theseus, Perseus, and Zeus himself. Outside of Hellenic mythology, Robin Hood comes to mind.

 

So yet, I have heard of both, but both are just a little outside of my usual time period of interest :)

 

 

"Could people like Hypatia (a wondorous Alexandrian female philosopher, mathematician and astronomer) or emperor Julian be considered the defenders of our faith or even martyrs, as some, like Hypatia, died in the name of ancient wisdom, culture and the gods from the hands of the Christians?"

 

I have trouble answering this question, and I will tell you why. Hypatia was definitely murdered by Christians, but she was murdered for her social associations, not for trying to re-institute Hellenic worship or life. In a feud between Orestes, the prefect of Alexandria and Cyril, the Bishop of Alexandria over the regulation of Jewish dancing exhibitions in Alexandria, she was blamed for influencing Orestes not to reconcile with Cyril after one of 500 monks who resided in the mountains of Nitria, and who sided with Cyril,  struck Orestes in the head with a rock. Whether she had was besides the point. The backlash was on the Christians, as the actions by the Christian mob that killed her was widely criticized.

 

Emperor Julian did try to reconcile Christianity and Paganism. It's important to realize though that in the Roman empire during his two years of ruling (361-363 AD), there was no consensus about a state religion. Followers of many religious traditions lived together, creating a religious melting pot. Julian was a follower of the ancient ways and he tried to push for a broader adoption of those. During his lifetime, neither pagan nor Christian ideology won out, and the merits of all were greatly debated. What Julian did accomplish--and that was a major shift--was that he made Paganism a religion, where previously it had been a collection of traditions. As such, it could be 'pitted' against Christianity. Emperor Julian was committed to fostering religions other than Christianity, and that included Judaism. Because of this, the Jews came to call him 'Julian the Hellene', as in that time the term 'Hellene' was given the meaning of 'pagan' by the early Christian church. Julian died during the war with the Persians in an effort to further the rule of the Roman empire.

 

Yes, these people were heavily influenced by either Hellenic thought or Hellenic tradition (logical for the time they lived in). They were also some of the later people we know of who did so. That said there are probably many people we haven't heard of who believed the same. These people were not people who spent 24 hours a day, seven days a week promoting Hellenic thought. They promoted Hellenic thought, but it was just the way they lived their lives. I think anyone can be a personal hero, or even one of a tradition, if their actions are inspiring to people who hear their story or live it up close. As such, yes, I think Hypatia and Julian can be heroes. Are they martyrs...? Per definition, a martyr is somebody who suffers persecution and/or death for advocating, renouncing, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause of either a religious or secular nature. Neither qualifies per definition, but if you want to view them as symbols of exceptional leadership and heroism, then you are free to do so. They did live with the principle teachings of ancient Hellenic thought and religion, so in that way, they can definitely be seen as inspirational. All I would ask is to not forget about all the regular people no one wrote about but who lived their life in the same way.

• Tuesday, May 25, 2021
  Achelois ancient Hellenic culture Apollodorius Emperor Julian Hypatia Pausanias personal Philostratus Plato Question Collections Post requested post Roman

Question Collections post 20

I get a lot of questions from readers, and most of the time, the answers are fairly short. When I feel the question or the reply would be valuable to others as well, I make a post with a collection of them and post them in one go. Today is one of those posts.

"Do you know anyone with UPG into the personality of the river god Achelous or even who works with Greek river gods in general? Also, a popular source on Achelous says his worship was once widespread. I can't anymore detail on this though. I also can't find the source which speaks of the numerous wives and descents of this god. "

I don't think I do, but here is a shout-out to anyone reading this who does! Please get in contact with me so I can link you two...? Thanks! As for His children, Apollonius Rhodius, in the 'Argonautica', ascribes the sirens to Him as offspring:

"And soon they saw a fair island, Anthemoessa, where the clear- voiced Sirens, daughters of Achelous, used to beguile with their sweet songs whoever cast anchor there, and then destroy him. Them lovely Terpsichore, one of the Muses, bare, united with Achelous; and once they tended Demeter's noble daughter [Persephone]still unwed, and sang to her in chorus; and at that time they were fashioned in part like birds and in part like maidens to behold. And ever on the watch from their place of prospect with its fair haven, often from many had they taken away their sweet return, consuming them with wasting desire; and suddenly to the heroes, too, they sent forth from their lips a lily-like voice." [4.885]

Naiad nymphs of springs along the Gulf coast, such as Kastalia at Delphoi, and Peirene in Korinthos, were described as his daughters, as described by Pausanias in his 'Description of Greece':

"You reach, on the right of the way [to the sanctuary of Delphoi, Phokis] the water of Kastalia, which is sweet to drink and pleasant to bathe in . . . Panyassis [epic poet C5th B.C.] who composed an epic poem on Herakles, says that Kastalia was a daughter of Akheloios. For about Herakles he says:--`Crossing with swift feet snowy Parnassos he reached the immortal water of Kastalia, daughter of Akheloios.'" [10.8.9.]

As the largest of the rivers of southern Hellas Achelous was worshipped in many of the countries bordering the Gulf as the God of fresh-water springs. His largest cults were in Athens, Oropos, and Thespia:

Plato, in 'Phaedrus':
"Here, a fair resting-place, full of summer sounds and scents. Here is this lofty and spreading plane-tree [on the banks of the Ilissos river in Attica], and the agnus cast us high and clustering, in the fullest blossom and the greatest fragrance; and the stream which flows beneath the plane-tree is deliciously cold to the feet. Judging from the ornaments and images, this must be a spot sacred to Akheloios and the Nymphai. How delightful is the breeze:--so very sweet; and there is a sound in the air shrill and summerlike which makes answer to the chorus of the cicadae. But the greatest charm of all is the grass, like a pillow gently sloping to the head."

Pausanias, in his 'Description of Greece':
"[In the sanctuary of Amphiaraus in Oropos, Attika :] The altar shows parts . . . the third is to Hestia and Hermes and [the hero] Amphiaraus and the children of Amphilokhos . . . The fifth is dedicated to the Nymphai and Pan, and to the rivers Akheloos and Kephisos." [1.34.3.]

Philostratus the Elder, in 'Imagines':
"A youth [Narkissos] just returned from the hunt stands over a pool . . . The cave is sacred to Akheloos and the Nymphai, and the scene is painted realistically. For the statues are of a crude art and made from a local stone; some of them are worn away by time, others have been mutilated by children of cowherds or shepherds while still young and unaware of the presence of the god [i.e. Dionysos]." [1.23]

I would also like to point you to this page on Theoi.com about the cult of the Potamoi, the river Gods.

"I read your blog and found a blog post containing a video and information about ancient hellenic clothing. I would like to make a new himation as I am unhappy with my short one I made. I would like to wrap it around my body and, if I like to, even be able to cover my head with a piece of it, so I want to ask how large and how broad the piece of cloth should be to do this."

Let me give you the base measurements of all clothing items: the cloth for the chiton has to be your own height. For a peplos, the cloth has to be your height plus at least 18" (this will be the part you fold over). Both clothing items need to be twice your 'wingspan' in width. The himation was a rectangle of various sizes--in essence, if it's long or short enough for you to do with what you want, it is correct. For me, I try to choose a piece of cloth that reaches below my ass once I have pulled it up over my head. Again, this depends on your height.

"Have you heard about the great Hellenic mystic, Neopythagorean and possibly the prototype of Jesus Christ, Apollonius of Tyana?"

As far as I am aware, Neo-Pythagoreanism was a school of Hellenistic philosophy which revived Pythagorean doctrines. Ancient Hellenic philosophy is not my strongest knowledge base, but if I remember well, it focussed on spiritual purity and 'mind over matter'-type of behaviour in order to reach it. Religiously, I think its biggest influence/difference with mainstream thought was that prayer was more important than outward actions like sacrifice in worshipping the Theoi.

 

Apollonius of Tyana was a Roman philosopher and a Neo-Pythagorean. As he lived at the time of Christ and his teachings were partly similar, the two were compared by (Christian) writers from about the 4th century AD on. Both figures fit the mythic hero archetype, after all, and that archetype, specifically, is found in much of (Hellenic) mythology. Other examples include Theseus, Perseus, and Zeus himself. Outside of Hellenic mythology, Robin Hood comes to mind.

 

So yet, I have heard of both, but both are just a little outside of my usual time period of interest :)

 

 

"Could people like Hypatia (a wondorous Alexandrian female philosopher, mathematician and astronomer) or emperor Julian be considered the defenders of our faith or even martyrs, as some, like Hypatia, died in the name of ancient wisdom, culture and the gods from the hands of the Christians?"

 

I have trouble answering this question, and I will tell you why. Hypatia was definitely murdered by Christians, but she was murdered for her social associations, not for trying to re-institute Hellenic worship or life. In a feud between Orestes, the prefect of Alexandria and Cyril, the Bishop of Alexandria over the regulation of Jewish dancing exhibitions in Alexandria, she was blamed for influencing Orestes not to reconcile with Cyril after one of 500 monks who resided in the mountains of Nitria, and who sided with Cyril,  struck Orestes in the head with a rock. Whether she had was besides the point. The backlash was on the Christians, as the actions by the Christian mob that killed her was widely criticized.

 

Emperor Julian did try to reconcile Christianity and Paganism. It's important to realize though that in the Roman empire during his two years of ruling (361-363 AD), there was no consensus about a state religion. Followers of many religious traditions lived together, creating a religious melting pot. Julian was a follower of the ancient ways and he tried to push for a broader adoption of those. During his lifetime, neither pagan nor Christian ideology won out, and the merits of all were greatly debated. What Julian did accomplish--and that was a major shift--was that he made Paganism a religion, where previously it had been a collection of traditions. As such, it could be 'pitted' against Christianity. Emperor Julian was committed to fostering religions other than Christianity, and that included Judaism. Because of this, the Jews came to call him 'Julian the Hellene', as in that time the term 'Hellene' was given the meaning of 'pagan' by the early Christian church. Julian died during the war with the Persians in an effort to further the rule of the Roman empire.

 

Yes, these people were heavily influenced by either Hellenic thought or Hellenic tradition (logical for the time they lived in). They were also some of the later people we know of who did so. That said there are probably many people we haven't heard of who believed the same. These people were not people who spent 24 hours a day, seven days a week promoting Hellenic thought. They promoted Hellenic thought, but it was just the way they lived their lives. I think anyone can be a personal hero, or even one of a tradition, if their actions are inspiring to people who hear their story or live it up close. As such, yes, I think Hypatia and Julian can be heroes. Are they martyrs...? Per definition, a martyr is somebody who suffers persecution and/or death for advocating, renouncing, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause of either a religious or secular nature. Neither qualifies per definition, but if you want to view them as symbols of exceptional leadership and heroism, then you are free to do so. They did live with the principle teachings of ancient Hellenic thought and religion, so in that way, they can definitely be seen as inspirational. All I would ask is to not forget about all the regular people no one wrote about but who lived their life in the same way.

• Thursday, June 4, 2015
  Achelois ancient Hellenic culture Apollodorius Emperor Julian Hypatia Pausanias personal Philostratus Plato Question Collections Post requested post Roman

Labour four: Capture the Erymanthian Boar

The last I wrote of Hēraklēs, our hero had successfully navigated Eurystheus' scheme of getting him killed by help of Artemis. Hēraklēs completed another labour, made Artemis happy, and saved the day. All was well in the world of Hēraklēs. At this point, Hēraklēs is aware he still has eight labours ahead of him: he completed three successfully, but the labour with the Lernaean Hydra was disqualified because he had accepted the help of his nephew and lover Iolaus. It was most certainly an unfair ruling, but nothing can be done about it: Hēraklēs must continue with his quest in hopes of cleansing himself of his crime.

The fourth labour is to capture the Erymanthian Boar, which got his name from the mountainside and swamp it roamed on. It seems Eurystheus realized that capturing something can be a lot more deadly than killing something, especially when that something is bigger and badder than any of its peers. That said, Hyginus in his Fabulae describes that the task was not to capture the boar, but to kill it, which Hēraklēs accomplished. As far as I am aware, though, he is the only one. Pausanias mentions the boar in his 'Description of Greece', saying:

"There is also a legend that Heracles at the command of Eurystheus hunted by the side of the Erymanthus a boar that surpassed all others in size and in strength. The people of Cumae among the Opici say that the boar's tusks dedicated in their sanctuary of Apollo are those of the Erymanthian boar, but the saying is altogether improbable." [8.24.5]

All who write about the labour agree that it is a difficult one. A boar is a ferocious animal, and even modern day hunters take care when hunting boar. Diodorus explains why this labour might have been the hardest so far:

"This Command was thought to be exceedingly difficult, since it required of the man who fought such a beast that he possess such a superiority over it as to catch precisely the proper moment in the very heat of the encounter. For should he let it loose while it still retained its strength he would be in danger from its rushes, and should he attack it more violently than was proper, then he would have killed it and so the Labour would remain unfulfilled." [4.12.1]

This labour became even harder to complete for Hēraklēs when he met the kéntauroi (or 'centaurs') on his way to the boar. Our hero went the long way to visit Phontus, a kéntaur who dwelt in a cave on Mount Pholoe, who was the son of Seilenus and the nymph Melia. Having heard of Hēraklēs, Phontus entertained him in his cave, and provided him with food. Hēraklēs, thirsty from the savory meat dish, asked for wine, but Phontus said he only had the wine that was communal to all the kéntauroi, and he did not dare touch it. Hēraklēs convinced him to do so, regardless, and the kéntauroi came galloping to the cave. Hēraklēs fought them, and many died. Phontus, inspecting one of Hēraklēs' arrows dipped in hydra poison, which the hero had used to kill one of the kéntauros, dropped it onto his foot and he died of the poison as well. Hēraklēs, grieving for the death of Phontus, buried him near his cave. There are many accounts of this, but the most beautiful--abide lengthy--description in my opinion is from Diodorus:

"About this time that Heracles was performing these Labours, there was a struggle between him and the Centaurs, as they are called, the reason being as follows. Pholus the Centaur, from whom the neighbouring mountain came to be called Pholoê, and receiving Heracles with the courtesies due to a guest he opened for him a jar of wine which had been buried in the earth. This jar, the writers of myths relate, had of old been left with a certain Centaur by Dionysus, who had given him orders only to open it when Heracles should come to that place. And so, four generation after that time, when Heracles was being entertained as a guest, Pholus recalled the orders of Dionysus.

Now when the jar had been opened and the sweet odour of the wine, because of its great age and strength, came to the Centaurs dwelling near there, it came to pass that they were driven mad; consequently they rushed in a body to the dwelling of Pholus and set about plundering him of the wine in a terrifying manner.

At this Pholus hid himself in fear, but Heracles, to their surprise, grappled with those who were employing such violence. He had indeed to struggle with beings who were gods on their mother’s side, who possessed the swiftness of horses, who had the strength of two bodies, and enjoyed in addition the experience and wisdom of men. The Centaurs advanced upon him, some with pine trees which they had plucked up together with the roots, others with great rocks, some with burning firebrands, and still others with axes such as are used to slaughter oxen.

But he withstood them without sign of fear and maintained a battle which was worthy of his former exploits. The Centaurs were aided in their struggle by their mother Nephelê, who sent down a heavy rain, by which she gave no trouble to those who had four legs, but for him who was supported upon two made the footing slippery. Despite all this Heracles maintained an astonishing struggle with those who enjoyed such advantages as these, slew the larger part of them, and forced the survivors to flee.

Of the Centaurs which were killed the most renowned were Daphnis, Argeius, Amphion, also Hippotion, Oreius, Isoples, Malanchaetes, and Thereus, Doupon, and Phrixus. As for those who escaped the peril by flight, every one of them later received a fitting punishment: Homadus, for instance, was killed in Arcadia when he was attempting to violate Alcyonê, the sister of Eurystheus. And for this feat it came to pass that Heracles was marveled at exceedingly; for though he had private grounds for hating his enemy, yet because he pitied her who was being outraged, he determined to be superior to others in humanity.

A peculiar thing also happened in the case of him who was called Pholus, the friend of Heracles. While he was burying the fallen Centaurs, since they were his kindred, and was extracting an arrow from one of them, he was wounded by the barb, and since the wound could not be healed he came to his death. Heracles gave him a magnificent funeral and buried him at the foot of the mountain, which serves better than a gravestone to preserve his glory; for Pholoê makes known the identity of the buried man by bearing his name and no inscription is needed." [4.12.3 - 4.12.8]

Apollodorus gives an extended account where the fight claims another casualty besides poor Pholus: the kéntauros Kheiron, teacher of heroes and kings:

"Thence they took refuge with Chiron, who, driven by the Lapiths from Mount Pelion, took up his abode at Malea. As the centaurs cowered about Chiron, Hercules shot an arrow at them, which, passing through the arm of Elatus, stuck in the knee of Chiron. Distressed at this, Hercules ran up to him, drew out the shaft, and applied a medicine which Chiron gave him. But the hurt proving incurable, Chiron retired to the cave and there he wished to die, but he could not, for he was immortal. However, Prometheus offered himself to Zeus to be immortal in his stead, and so Chiron died. The rest of the centaurs fled in different directions, and some came to Mount Malea, and Eurytion to Pholoe, and Nessus to the river Evenus. The rest of them Poseidon received at Eleusis and hid them in a mountain." [2.5.4]

Moving on, Hēraklēs finally reached the Erymanthian Boar's territory, and unlike the Golden Hind of Artemis, he did not have to chase after the boar at all. At the first challenging shout, the beast charged him, and Hēraklēs frightened him off so he could pursue and capture him more easily. In the words of Apollodorus:

"And when he had chased the boar with shouts from a certain thicket, he drove the exhausted animal into deep snow, trapped it, and brought it to Mycenae." [4.12.2]

Apollodorius Rhodius, a Hellenic epic poet and scholar of the Library of Alexandria who flourished in the third century BC writes the ending even better in his 'Argonautica':

"...he [Hēraklēs] carried the boar alive that fed in the thickets of Lampeia, near the vast Erymanthian swamp, the boar bound with chains he put down from his huge shoulders at the entrance to the market-place of Mycenae" [122]

Another little tidbit by Diodorus, to which the image at the top of his post relates:

"...when it came to the struggle he kept so careful an eye on the proper balance that he brought back the boar alive to Eurystheus; and when the king saw him carrying the boar on his shoulders, he was terrified and hid himself in a bronze vessel." [4.12.2]

This labour was quite costly to Hēraklēs, who not only singlehandedly slew most of the kéntauroi, but also killed two good men--and all over a bottle of wine, I might add. Hēraklēs still has many labours ahead of him, and his adventure is far from over. For now, though, we will let our hero recover from this ordeal.


Image property: here.

• Sunday, August 25, 2013
  Apollodorius Apollodorus Centaurs Diodorus Siculus Eurystheus Hēraklēs Hyginus Kheiron Labours series Mythology 101 Pausanias Pholus