On Saturday, I posted about an alternative to animal sacrifice I found on another blog. In short, you can fill a coconut with wine, and sacrifice that. It was meant as an sympathetic alternative for those who can not and/or will not sacrifice an animal to the Gods, but do feel the need to include a homage to this practice. I'm revisiting that post because of two distinct, but equally interesting, reactions I go on that post. Note that I have not cleared the use of these quotes with their respective owners, so if either of them would like me to take theirs down, this post will change.
The first reacting was by Lesley Madytinou, on Facebook:
Lesley is right, obviously, in saying that the act of animal sacrifice only 'counts' when that which is sacrificed actually has a soul to sacrifice to the Theoi. There is no substitute for a true blood sacrifice. My interpretation of Lesley's words is that a practice like a coconut sacrifice does not have the same 'kick' as an animal sacrifice, and I got to thinking that it might be slightly disrespectful to the Theoi to pass off a coconut as a sacrificial animal.
This leads me to another reaction I got, from Conor W.:
I completely understand where Conor is coming from. Like Conor, I think it's impossible to reconstruct the practice of the ancient Hellenes completely, due to a large variety of factors. Conor's views seem to be more of the Reformed variety; a non-static interpretation where growth and development, and an adaption of the old ways to the new world, are encouraged. This is not my path, but I see the value in it, mostly because it would ease the ethical and religious questions raised by Lesley.
I agree with both views, and struggle with that because these two are saying the exact same things that I debated with myself before posting the coconut sacrifice post. This is why I posted these reactions--something I've never done like this. During my practice and writing, I constantly switch between these two views, one--born out of a desire to stay as close to the original a possible--sends me back to the ancient texts, and my own head, to figure out how to achieve the practice I want and the Theoi deserve, and the other--born out of necessity, in a world unequipped and unwilling to accommodate the ancient practice--has me figuring out ways to adapt modern possibilities to the ancient framework. It's a constant struggle, and I found it highly amusing to get these exact viewpoints on the same post I argued with myself about. It's like the proverbial angel and devil on my shoulder suddenly materialized, and I have absolutely no way of knowing with whom I agree the most.
I love my practice, but sometimes, reconstruction is really difficult. I have friends who have figured all of this out, who either say that animal sacrifice is fine, and then go on to practice it, or say that it was outdated even in ancient Hellas, and they see no need for it at all in modern practice. I wish I had that. The problem is that my reconstructive focus is on a time period where animal sacrifice was still practiced widely, and as such, I need to deal with the fact that, in order to reconstruct that tradition, I need to practice that as well. Only I can't. Not so much ethically, but legally, and practically. So where does that leave me?
I've lamented this position before, a lot of times, actually. I wish that, after nearly a year, I would have figured out an answer. Because, if I'm completely honest, I agree with Lesley far more than I agree with Conor. There are days, however, that I wish I could follow Conor's path. It would make life a lot easier for me. As for the coconut sacrifice, I'm glad I posted it. Not everyone struggles with these things as much as I do, so to some, it might be a great addition to their practice. I still want to try it, at least once, although I am (and was) aware it's not a full substitute.
I'm afraid I'll be struggling with this issue, and a few others like it, for a long while longer--perhaps even the rest of my life. That's alright: it comes with the territory. I would still love to hear the opinion of others. And Lesley, Conor, if either of you wants your name taken out of this, just let me know. I'll completely re-write the post. If not, thank you. You have helped me crystalize things that were in my head but I was unable to get at. Thank you for externalizing my internal dialogue.
The first reacting was by Lesley Madytinou, on Facebook:
"A coconut is classified as a bloodless offering. Even offering a piece of uncooked meat from the butcher is a bloodless offering. Unfortunately there is no substitute for blood sacrifice. Its meaning and purpose is very specific. [...] The value of bloodless offerings should not be underestimated. Blood sacrifice has its place and purpose. So does the bloodless variety. Coconut could not ever be considered even symbolic of blood sacrifice. The 'soul' of the coconut does not leave its shell when its milk is spilt upon the altar. It is the actual physical action of this that fulfills the purpose of Thysia."
Lesley is right, obviously, in saying that the act of animal sacrifice only 'counts' when that which is sacrificed actually has a soul to sacrifice to the Theoi. There is no substitute for a true blood sacrifice. My interpretation of Lesley's words is that a practice like a coconut sacrifice does not have the same 'kick' as an animal sacrifice, and I got to thinking that it might be slightly disrespectful to the Theoi to pass off a coconut as a sacrificial animal.
This leads me to another reaction I got, from Conor W.:
"I don't see why it couldn't fit into reconstructionism. I think it is a brilliant idea really. [...] I'd like to politely point out that Reconstructionism isn't mimicry and I haven't ever met a single recon who is doing things exactly as they were done in Ancient Times. Substituting a Coconut for a Goat doesn't automatically make the ritual 'non-recon'. We have access to a lot of things the ancient Greeks did not have and integration is an important part of reconstructionism. After all, when was the last time you consulted the Delphic Oracle to figure out what a God wanted?"
I completely understand where Conor is coming from. Like Conor, I think it's impossible to reconstruct the practice of the ancient Hellenes completely, due to a large variety of factors. Conor's views seem to be more of the Reformed variety; a non-static interpretation where growth and development, and an adaption of the old ways to the new world, are encouraged. This is not my path, but I see the value in it, mostly because it would ease the ethical and religious questions raised by Lesley.
I agree with both views, and struggle with that because these two are saying the exact same things that I debated with myself before posting the coconut sacrifice post. This is why I posted these reactions--something I've never done like this. During my practice and writing, I constantly switch between these two views, one--born out of a desire to stay as close to the original a possible--sends me back to the ancient texts, and my own head, to figure out how to achieve the practice I want and the Theoi deserve, and the other--born out of necessity, in a world unequipped and unwilling to accommodate the ancient practice--has me figuring out ways to adapt modern possibilities to the ancient framework. It's a constant struggle, and I found it highly amusing to get these exact viewpoints on the same post I argued with myself about. It's like the proverbial angel and devil on my shoulder suddenly materialized, and I have absolutely no way of knowing with whom I agree the most.
I love my practice, but sometimes, reconstruction is really difficult. I have friends who have figured all of this out, who either say that animal sacrifice is fine, and then go on to practice it, or say that it was outdated even in ancient Hellas, and they see no need for it at all in modern practice. I wish I had that. The problem is that my reconstructive focus is on a time period where animal sacrifice was still practiced widely, and as such, I need to deal with the fact that, in order to reconstruct that tradition, I need to practice that as well. Only I can't. Not so much ethically, but legally, and practically. So where does that leave me?
I've lamented this position before, a lot of times, actually. I wish that, after nearly a year, I would have figured out an answer. Because, if I'm completely honest, I agree with Lesley far more than I agree with Conor. There are days, however, that I wish I could follow Conor's path. It would make life a lot easier for me. As for the coconut sacrifice, I'm glad I posted it. Not everyone struggles with these things as much as I do, so to some, it might be a great addition to their practice. I still want to try it, at least once, although I am (and was) aware it's not a full substitute.
I'm afraid I'll be struggling with this issue, and a few others like it, for a long while longer--perhaps even the rest of my life. That's alright: it comes with the territory. I would still love to hear the opinion of others. And Lesley, Conor, if either of you wants your name taken out of this, just let me know. I'll completely re-write the post. If not, thank you. You have helped me crystalize things that were in my head but I was unable to get at. Thank you for externalizing my internal dialogue.
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Monday, April 1, 2013
animals bloggers I admire daily practice Hellenic Reconstruction Hellenismos 101 requested post sacrifice
9 comments:
I wouldn't call myself 'reformed' exactly, as I don't really agree with everything they are doing. I, myself, when possible try to stick to the source material, but my main concern is making the religion accessible. Doing things the 'right' way can be rather expensive, so the impoverished might not find the religion as accessible. I mean, shrine equipment and olive oil are quite expensive, as well as wine. I can't buy a bottle of wine, yet I refuse to libate just water (I'm not giving anything up. I have virtually unlimited access to clean, fresh water. It isn't a cost to me, and that means, to me, it is unworthy of sacrifice). So, I libate things like coffee, vanilla extract, vegetable oil, soda (I know that is definitely frowned upon by some, haven't been presented with a logical reason yet)because I have access to them, and they are precious to me (I cook with and eat these things). I find often I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place because, in all clear words, I'm moderate. I'm serving the needs of my house and my local group rather than trying to step in line with labels like 'Reformed' or 'Traditionialist'. I celebrate the traditional festivals (I follow the Athenian calendar with a couple of thoughtful omissions, mostly due to my gender). As urban sprawl increases, I think you will find that there are fewer and fewer people who can perform the 'traditional' bloody sacrifices.
Though, let me be a bit clear, I don't think that the coconut is the same as a blood offering, but rather makes a nice tangible substitution for the 'feel' of a blood offering. Blood is blood, no changing that.
All in all though, I don't know if it matters much, reformed, traditional, unaffiliated. The important thing is is that we *are* bringing things back, we are reconstructing and breathing new life into these practices. I, for one, plan to carry my child around the hearth someday.
Ugh, sorry for the choppiness on that and some things weren't clearly explained. Wrote it when I had been up only for a short time.
To clarify a few points that I think might need to be clarified, the reason why I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place (or so it feels) is that with my approach I come under fire from both sides. I'm not traditional enough for the traditionalists, and I'm not flexible enough for the 'Reformed' folks. In my group based rights though, I lean more to the traditional, in my house-based stuff I lean to the left. My approach to the religion is definitely one where I can say it meets in the middle of both, and I feel no need or pressure to align myself with one 'faction' or the other or to appease either side.
I did have the same struggles as you, until I stopped worrying about being called one or the other, or preferring one or the other. People can call me as they wish. My worship and service is to the theoi first, my community(at the many levels it exists) and worship group second, and myself last. Just my two cents.
Perhaps I can also shed some light on this for you as well. The coconut (bloodless) sacrifice is not meant to substitute for a blood sacrifice. My perspective on this is valid, as our group offers Demeter an actual pig every Thesmophoria. All traditional actions followed. However, the coconut sacrifice is a modern form of 'representative' sacrifice. It does not replace it, but it acts as a form of sacrifice that mimics the animal sacrifice. The actual 'sacrifice' comes when the worshiper spends time and effort in preparing the fruit and praying on it. At the moment when the fruit is cut open, that energy is released. Hope this helps to clarify a few things.
Perhaps I can also shed some light on this for you as well. The coconut (bloodless) sacrifice is not meant to substitute for a blood sacrifice. My perspective on this is valid, as our group offers Demeter an actual pig every Thesmophoria. All traditional actions followed. However, the coconut sacrifice is a modern form of 'representative' sacrifice. It does not replace it, but it acts as a form of sacrifice that mimics the animal sacrifice. The actual 'sacrifice' comes when the worshiper spends time and effort in preparing the fruit and praying on it. At the moment when the fruit is cut open, that energy is released. Hope this helps to clarify a few things.
@Conor W.: I'm sorry about the late reply. I'm afraid I fell ill and was not exactly up to writing anything, let alone anything thoughtful.
I did not mean to label you as anything, and I'm sorry if my post came across as such. I do not know you well enough by far to make any such statement. I meant to generalize your statement, in order to make my point ;)
I absolutely agree that what matters most is that we worship the Theoi, not the way we do so. I'm sorry that your position leaves you in a spot where you feel you do not fit in with either side. I applaud you for sticking with your practice despite of this. Thank you for your advice!
@Kirios Museos: Thank you for your added words of explanation. I completely understand what you and your group meant with the coconut sacrifice. I also understand it will not, can not, and should not replace blood sacrifice. Still, as a form of sacrifice, it is quite valuable. Thank you, again.
My position has its advantages though. I mean, I'm one of the few recons I can think of off the top of my head who doesn't worship alone and who stills worships in the traditional format (Procession, Purification, Hymns, Prayers/Petitions, Offerings [I always do incense and food then follow that with libations], Closing. I have my shrines and khernips(I have a mild obsession with khernips for no good reason. Washing my hands and face and purifying the area just delights me), I'm just of the stance that just because it was or wasn't done in ancient Greece it doesn't mean that I can or cannot do it. I think of things thoughtfully and carefully, but sometimes I feel you have to step outside of the Athenian box. Hence one of the reasons why I'm currently developing a celebration honoring dogs and the Gods associated with them. Every once in a while I get a rush of inspiration or realization, and, in a few words I gotta do what I gotta do. That stance isn't a popular one among some folks, but I'm not a 19 year old man living in Classical Athens, I'm a 19 year old man living in North Texas. I think it is natural that my practice and worship differs from the Athenian way, and I suspect that if it had spread to America, it would indeed be a different beast than it was in Classical Athens.
But, maybe that is a conversation for a different time.
Are you still sick? I hope you feel better at the very least :< Maybe you'll get a visit from Asklepius
@Conor W.: I can fully see the many benefits of your position, and see the wisdom in it. Your position might not fit me, but it's something to learn from, for sure.
I'm feeling much better, thank you :) I am sure the Theoi helped speed along my recovery.
It seems to me that sacrificing a piece of meat bought from the butcher is even more than what the ancient Hellenes did, because it is eatable, while they sacrificed mostly uneatable parts, according to the Mecone Treaty.
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